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-   -   Explora safety net (http://forum.dstv.com/showthread.php?t=37609)

GavinWood 2017-03-14 20:06

Explora safety net
 
I noticed the other day that the safety net recording i had set 3 to min + 10 min had stopped recording and there was only 1min + min recording.

Checked settings and it refelected 1 + 1 - changed back to 3 + 10 but recordings continue to only have 1 + 1 safety recording.

Tried cancelling series recording and requesting again but it doesnt seem to help.

Any advise?

Tiddlywinks 2017-03-14 20:30

If the safety net was 1+1 when the Record season was started. It stays that way forever. You have to delete the Series recording and start it again with 3+10 and then that will be locked in.

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GavinWood 2017-03-14 20:40

I think i tried that.

Cancelled series recording and for a particula program and then re requested to record season

Any other ideas?

[QUOTE=Tiddlywinks;335620]If the safety net was 1+1 when the Record season was started. It stays that way forever. You have to delete the Series recording and start it again with 3+10 and then that will be locked in.

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

Tiddlywinks 2017-03-14 20:42

Try again it has worked for me.

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Jan Horn 2017-03-14 20:44

I would leave the settings at 1+1. I found that changing to the 3+10 settings on the Explora results in recording conflict errors where you schedule two or more consecutive series recordings like Chicago Fire, Chicago PD and Chicago Med.

GavinWood 2017-03-14 20:47

1 +1 a bit short sometimes and results in cutoffs in some programs

[ QUOTE=Jan Horn;335632]I would leave the settings at 1+1. I found that changing to the 3+10 settings on the Explora results in recording conflict errors where you schedule two or more consecutive series recordings like Chicago Fire, Chicago PD and Chicago Med.[/QUOTE]

Jan Horn 2017-03-14 21:31

I think this that this post by Geoff D best sett out what I was trying to say earlier on. This was a reply to a query very similar to yours

[QUOTE=Geoff D;315339]You have to appreciate a few things:

(1) The Explora decoders are only able to record ONE programme at a time.
(2) Two back-to-back recordings WILL cause the in between safety nets settings to be eliminated. (Because, unlike with the 4 tuners HD PVRs, only ONE setting can be active at any one time).
(3) Three back-to-back recordings one after the other WILL eliminate the safety net between each of the recordings, which means the "centre" recording will have no safety nets at all.
(4) The settings that are operational are the ones that were set at the time the setting was loaded into the decoder.
(5) A switch over time of about 1 minute between recordings is as good as it gets.

(6) I have found over the years, that a safety net setting of 10 minutes front and back works the best.
(7) IF there are two programmes one wants to record on the same channel THEN it is best to set a TBR (MR) instead of trying to make use of serial settings. TBRs (MRs) offer the best control of what happens even when conflicts occur with other recordings as TBRs (MRs) always take precedence over the in-built conflict resolution rules.[/QUOTE]

Optimist 2017-03-15 08:40

Us advising each other of "best" safety net times is not likely to be of much help as we all watch different channels / programs with their varying needs.
The best to recommend IMO is set the start and end to 10 minutes each for safest available results.

The problem itself - it looks to me that how it works is not being fully understood.
You can either set the changes you want in the menu which will then always affect all these recordings' safety nets in that same way. (Settings \ User Preferences \ Recordings)
Or you can alter them individually, adjusting any number of recording schedule entries in the way that suits you (for each one, as it's highlighted, in the OK button's pop up menu select "EDIT"). Unfortunately this option is sometimes reset by changes MC make, so one has to keep an eye on it.
You can't make one safety net setting separately for a whole series in advance.

Optimist 2017-03-15 09:24

Re my last sentence in the last post;

[QUOTE=Tiddlywinks;335620]If the safety net was 1+1 when the Record season was started. It stays that way forever. You have to delete the Series recording and start it again with 3+10 and then that will be locked in.[/QUOTE]

This is something I haven't tried.

@MC - Surely changing the [U]master[/U] user default setting in the menu should override all past settings, even those associated with SBRs (series recordings) and their future activities?
Not to do so seems like mistaken logic to me, it undermines the purpose of a master setting.
[B]Please could you confirm / expand on the details of this here, many thanks.[/B]

Has any Forumite found value in the way this SBR factor works?

MC Mpho 2017-03-15 09:32

Thanks everyone for the responses you have provided.
I have also escalated to the Infield Support team and will post more feedback should they have anything further to add to the above.

Tiddlywinks, please keep us updated.

Regards,
MC Mpho

MC Mpho 2017-03-15 11:08

Herewith feedback:

Please un-schedule the series recordings and reschedule again with the new (10 min) safety net settings to take effect.

Please also note that back to back recordings will not take safety net settings into consideration as the content will overlap to the next event. The recording will take effect with the next airing of the event.

Regards,
MC Mpho

Optimist 2017-03-15 11:21

Thanks from my side, Mpho.
And I think you meant for @GavinWood to keep us updated, @Tiddlywinks was assisting as well.

I've just done some experiments as we've never had the need or desire to alter the master settings again.

Changed my start safety net to 8 mins., then waited a bit.
Even after a reboot, none of the SBR related or EBR (EPG etc. based once-off recordings) scheduled recordings had their start safety nets altered.

Conclusion - no existing recording schedules can be changed via this master adjustment. The new changes will only affect any recordings that are setup after the master safety net settings have been changed.
So this is not a mistaken logic issue, but in my professional opinion it would be of best value for MC to view it as an oversight needing enhancement.

Tomorrow morning I will monitor further existing-SBR triggered scheduling for next week Thursday to see how that performs. If nothing further posted then it's the same findings as @Tiddlywinks.


EDIT: Note that MRs (Manual Recordings) are never affected by the safety nets, one has to include any safety margins in the times we choose to set.

Geoff D 2017-03-15 17:40

It has always been like that. Once a recording is scheduled it effectively become a TBR (MR on the Explora). Only new settings done after the change will take into account the new settings.

Update (2017-03-16): TBRs and MRs have limited editing facilities available, and one a recording has started, you have even less options to change things. On the older decoders you can:

Stop the recording.
Change the end time of the recording.

Optimist 2017-03-15 18:15

It's more of a problem with the Exploras, one can't call them a sort of TBR (MR) afterwards as they can't truly be edited with new settings.

EBR - can only edit the name and manually individually adjust the safety nets
SBR - can only manually individually adjust the safety nets (name can be altered in Playlist after recording starts)
MR - no editing (I believe name can be altered in Playlist after recording starts, don't think I've tried it)

Optimist 2017-03-15 18:55

What I would do if I was MC;

Make the factory defaults for the safety nets the max 10 min., [COLOR=red]*[/COLOR]can't do any harm (as known from many other threads, longer would be preferred by many).
Then, the finer structure is less of a problem - more detailed adjustments by the few users who do make them become less likely to be necessary, and those who still feel they need to do so are the more likely types to figure it out.

([COLOR=red]*[/COLOR] could do "harm" to those recording a lot, their harddrives will full up a little bit quicker.)

MC Mpho 2017-03-16 09:58

I'll pass on your suggestion Optimist :)

[B]Herewith more info:[/B]

Safety net changes should only be applied to newly scheduled recordings.

You can’t change the safety net of an existing series recording – editing is not available.

Event tracking will be applied which would remove the need to change the safety nets in the first place.

When changing the default setting values for the safety nets, the new safety net values will be applied to newly scheduled recordings as they are scheduled.

Optimist 2017-03-16 10:11

[QUOTE=MC Mpho;336073]I'll pass on your suggestion Optimist :)[/QUOTE]

Thanks Mpho :cool:

Just want to add that if a survey was done I'm sure it would be found that most don't keep lots of recordings for a very long time, so a 10 min. (or more) factory default would serve the majority of needs well.

[QUOTE=MC Mpho;336073]Event tracking will be applied which would remove the need to change the safety nets in the first place.[/QUOTE]

Event tracking is great, but unfortunately its automatic choices aren't always what a user wants. That factor itself can't really be further automated of course.
I guess those of us who like to "fiddle" more for better control will always need the alternatives :-)

I'll leave it there, unless there's more.

MC Marietjie 2017-03-16 10:24

[QUOTE=Optimist;336079]Thanks Mpho :cool:

Just want to add that if a survey was done I'm sure it would be found that most don't keep lots of recordings for a very long time, so a 10 min. (or more) factory default would serve the majority of needs well.[/QUOTE]

A survey was done and most customers actually keep their recordings for more than 6 months. So always important to not make yourself a sample size of 1. :p

Jan Horn 2017-03-16 10:51

I agree that event tracking is great but it failed me on Tuesday see the thread at [url]http://forum.dstv.com/showthread.php?t=37612[/url]

Optimist 2017-03-16 10:58

[QUOTE=MC Marietjie;336082]A survey was done and most customers actually keep their recordings for more than 6 months. So always important to not make yourself a sample size of 1. :p[/QUOTE]

Wow, I'm really surprised to learn this!
Apologies, but it must be remembered that we Forumites work with very little stats etc. info, so our beliefs will be wrong sometimes even though we do our best to base them on what is or seems to be understood ;)

MC Marietjie 2017-03-16 11:00

There is nothing wrong with your point of view. Just important to understand that your point of view might not reflect that of all customers. So for me the lesson is to always keep an open mind.


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Optimist 2017-03-16 11:02

Indeed, no-one has a one and only answer. I've never claimed that, but know some do in their passion to be heard.

Geoff D 2017-03-16 11:12

I agree with Optimist. The current default safety nets are just about useless. Until we get a far more stable and reliable EPG, the setting of 3 minutes and 10 minutes do not get you anywhere. Every decoder I work on, I set the defaults to 10 minutes both sides and then inform the owner of the decoder that he will now have to manage what he keeps better.

Event tracking? Gave up on that facility years ago. I actively manage my recordings and sort out my own conflicts as and when they occur. I just cannot "see" the logic behind the default conflict resolution rules. ( Note I am not talking about the Explora here, as I have no experience with its rules).

Last night is a case in point. One SABC 3 (yes I know MC has no control over the SABC EPG, but it illustrates what happens with poor EPG management).

I have a TBR set on TWO decoders for the same program starting at midnight ( why two? Because one cannot rely on even the recordings working properly on either of the two decoders, what with the number of inexplicable random reboots we get), each side. Even that was not enough to cater for the broadcast time slippage and the program still ended up missing the end of the show ...... The set times are 23:40 to 00:20. The total slippage was 30 minutes which means we ended up with 10 minutes of the end not recorded.

And yes I am probably also a sample of one.

The only answer to this debate long term is:

[I]Get the EPG right and stable[/I]. Then you can set the safety nets as tight as you want them to be.

Optimist 2017-03-16 11:18

In the meantime, the Explora factory defaults (I think that's 1 min. each) is certainly going to the opposite extreme, so maybe we can be met somewhere in the middle?

Thanks MC, good to see that this is receiving the serious attention it deserves and needs.

Jan Horn 2017-03-16 11:43

[QUOTE=MC Marietjie;336082]A survey was done and most customers actually keep their recordings for more than 6 months. So always important to not make yourself a sample size of 1. :p[/QUOTE]
I don't want to dispute the survey but logically there are only 185 days in six months and an Explora can record around 220 hours (110 for the Explora 2a). That would mean around 1 recording a day of an hour the average time for a series episode. Yes I have a few recordings that I have not deleted because I would like to view again in a few months time and that will likely not be repeated but in general I do around 12 recordings a week which give me around 9 weeks of recording time on my Explora 2a.

Optimist 2017-03-16 13:27

[QUOTE=Jan Horn;336127]I don't want to dispute the survey but logically there are only 185 days in six months and an Explora can record around 220 hours (110 for the Explora 2a). That would mean around 1 recording a day of an hour the average time for a series episode. Yes I have a few recordings that I have not deleted because I would like to view again in a few months time and that will likely not be repeated but in general I do around 12 recordings a week which give me around 9 weeks of recording time on my Explora 2a.[/QUOTE]

I've been giving this further thought, my concept now is that most keep [U]some[/U] recordings for more than 6 months - maybe close enough to what some of us thought before. Makes more sense, and in my example I'm hanging onto a few of the recently broadcast Bond movies for quite a while.

I have to wonder just how specific the survey was, they aren't usually that detailed. So the results [U]may[/U] be fairly open to interpretation. Although there could be some degree more that they can determine.
Anyway, MC have shown that they're looking at this with logic.

Jan Horn 2017-03-16 13:58

With the HD 2P PVR on XV we are actually using it as a storage space for those recording we would like to hang onto. Currently a few of the Bond Movies and a few recordings from Kyknet. Being Afrikaans speaking some may find it strange that we seldom watch Kyknet. (less than an hour a week).

GavinWood 2017-03-16 19:32

So my tests

Reset safety net defaults = 3 +10
[LIST][*]New single episode recording = 3 +10 - all good[*]new series recording = 3 +10 - all good[*]delete existing series recording and request series recording again (no episodes in recorded history) = 1+1 - not good ?????[/LIST]so it appears if you have ever recorded something with different safety net settings you can never change these????


doesn't make sense - MC??

GavinWood 2017-03-16 19:33

please see my post before this - tries this it didn't work.

new series recordings (and single episodes) work fine tho''

[QUOTE=MC Mpho;335752]Herewith feedback:

Please un-schedule the series recordings and reschedule again with the new (10 min) safety net settings to take effect.

Please also note that back to back recordings will not take safety net settings into consideration as the content will overlap to the next event. The recording will take effect with the next airing of the event.

Regards,
MC Mpho[/QUOTE]

Optimist 2017-03-16 20:12

@MC - I tried everything I can think of, no shortcut found for this bug.
My changed start safety net setting done yesterday has no effect when redoing a SBR for a series I stopped watching over a month ago.

Gavin, check back once in a while in case there's more added by anyone.

Jan Horn 2017-03-16 20:20

When I did my first post I mentioned recording conflicts but then did not pursue the issue because I thought that I may have been mistaken as it happened shortly after I got the Explora.

At the time I did change the safety settings to what I was used to on the 2P because the 3-10 made sense to me.

When I started getting conflicting recording notification notices,reading up on event tracking on the Explora I concluded that the 1-1 safety net was to eliminate recording conflicts and I changed back to the original 1-1 settings deleted all the series recording from the list and reprogrammed them again and the conflict notices disappeared.

This morning I changed the settings under settings>user preferences>recording to 3-10 and when I looked at my scheduled recordings saw no conflicts and thought that's it I was mistaken.

In light of my Chicago Med experience I decided to leave the settings at 3-10. When I checked again for conflict a few minutes ago I was surprised to see that Taken was flagged for conflict.

It appears that the 10 minutes safety net of Lethal Weapon cause the conflict with Taken. Changing the settings back to 1-1 did not resolve the conflict, not immediately.
It seem that any changes you make in the settings will only have an effect after a few minutes, like the next time it synchronizes with the EPG or whatever it does.

I deleted both the effected scheduled recordings and reprogramed them and the conflict was still there. While I was still thinking what to do next the conflict resolved itself.
See my screen shot

I seem attachment did not load It may be to large. Will edit and laod again

Optimist 2017-03-16 20:34

[QUOTE=Jan Horn;336235]...not immediately. It seem that any changes you make in the settings will only have an effect after a few minutes, like the next time it synchronizes with the EPG or whatever it does.[/QUOTE]

What is possibly happening there is that visual changes only appear after you exit the listings themselves, just going back to the top tab will do it or exit completely and go back in.
EDIT: But if you weren't adjusting anything in the listings as well afterwards, then maybe it is just some short processing delay that looked longer due to going quickly into the listings and staying there.

I won't comment on the safety nets seeming to cause conflicts, supposedly impossible but this is a bug now so who knows in this case.

Jan Horn 2017-03-16 20:35

1 Attachment(s)
Ok I see what you mean.

Here is the missing screenshot

Geoff D 2017-03-17 09:18

Dynamic updating of display screens does not take place seamlessly. One has to manually refresh the screens after changes to get the new values to show and that is normally done by exiting the screen and going back. Depending on how busy the processor is, the refresh could be delayed somewhat.

MC Mpho 2017-03-17 14:21

Hi Jan Horn,

I have escalated this update.
I will feedback as soon as I can.

Regards,
Mpho

Jan Horn 2017-03-17 14:44

It is actually GavinWood's thread. I am happy that the standard 1-1 safety net setting work for me with the assistance of event tracking . I only experience a recording problem once since I got the Explora 2A and that was with the Chicago Med recording the other night.


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